The Zodiac Killer
Will they ever uncover who he is or was?
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 322 | January 7, 2021 3:13 PM |
Wasn't it Arthur Leigh Allen?
by Anonymous | reply 2 | June 25, 2020 3:50 AM |
There was a rumor that it was the gay porn actor Scorpio.
by Anonymous | reply 3 | June 25, 2020 3:51 AM |
This case still freaks me out.
by Anonymous | reply 4 | June 25, 2020 3:52 AM |
Some say it was a Hollywood actor.
by Anonymous | reply 5 | June 25, 2020 3:52 AM |
They cracked the EAR/ONS case with familial DNA. I guess there must not be any leftover DNA samples from the Zodiac.
by Anonymous | reply 7 | June 25, 2020 3:54 AM |
They have retrieved DNA from one of the stamps on the Zodiac letters. It was too degraded to make a match.
by Anonymous | reply 8 | June 25, 2020 3:57 AM |
He got away with murder. Scary, indeed.
by Anonymous | reply 10 | June 25, 2020 3:58 AM |
R2, that theory has been discredited. Allen was pedophile (he was convicted of molesting a 12 year old boy), not a serial killer of adult couples.
by Anonymous | reply 11 | June 25, 2020 4:06 AM |
He’s a MAGAT White supremacist. Look at him!
by Anonymous | reply 12 | June 25, 2020 4:14 AM |
There was a rumor that the guy worked for the Gemini Men porn site.
by Anonymous | reply 13 | June 25, 2020 4:15 AM |
[quote] Has to be dead by now.
I'm not dead ... I mean, I'm sure you're right.
by Anonymous | reply 14 | June 25, 2020 4:16 AM |
R11, that makes sense. I guess I got suckered into that theory by Robert Graysmith's book and the subsequent film.
Was that Rick Marshall suspect -- the one who worked at a movie theater -- another dead end?
by Anonymous | reply 15 | June 25, 2020 4:32 AM |
There was a rumor that the Zodiac Killer died from cancer.
by Anonymous | reply 17 | June 25, 2020 4:48 AM |
David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film about the case and Arthur Allen Leigh that leaves the viewer to make his own decisions. There's direct and circumstantial evidence there and Leigh was identified by two surviving victims. It's a rabbit hole.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 18 | June 25, 2020 5:07 AM |
David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film about the case and Arthur Allen Leigh that leaves the viewer to make his own decisions. There's direct and circumstantial evidence there and Leigh was identified by two surviving victims. It's a rabbit hole.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 19 | June 25, 2020 5:07 AM |
He was Jim Nabors, TV's "Gomer Pyle"
by Anonymous | reply 20 | June 25, 2020 5:36 AM |
Is this even considered an active case anymore?
by Anonymous | reply 21 | June 25, 2020 6:25 AM |
Zodiac definitely builds the case against Leigh.
by Anonymous | reply 22 | June 25, 2020 6:36 AM |
Walter Mercado kept trying to tell you and you just wouldn't listen. Then he died.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 23 | June 25, 2020 7:01 AM |
So many suspects were eliminated by that quack who did handwriting analysis.
by Anonymous | reply 24 | June 25, 2020 7:41 AM |
R19, I'm not really the biggest true crime aficionado, but after watching the Fincher film years ago, I fell down a bit of a rabbit-hole and found an in-depth Zodiac site with lots of information about the case. The webmaster makes a case for Rick Marshall, and in fact, Mr. Marshall personally e-mailed him! Freaky stuff.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 25 | June 25, 2020 8:29 AM |
A cold case if there ever was one.
by Anonymous | reply 26 | June 25, 2020 10:22 AM |
That sketch is the stuff of nightmares, OP. Can you imagine seeing THAT coming your way while you're on a picnic?
by Anonymous | reply 27 | June 25, 2020 10:23 AM |
R27, I first saw that drawing on an episode of Unsolved Mysteries. One of the scariest cases, IMO. So brazen and never caught.
by Anonymous | reply 28 | June 25, 2020 3:57 PM |
It's Mitt Romney. Seriously. That Ted Cruz stuff was put out by Mitt's camp to deflect the fact that Mitt is fucking Zodiac Killer
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 29 | June 25, 2020 4:02 PM |
r17 if no one knows who he is how do they know what he died from?
by Anonymous | reply 30 | June 25, 2020 4:03 PM |
They found the Golden State Killer after all those years, so who knows, maybe they'll crack this case too
by Anonymous | reply 31 | June 25, 2020 4:20 PM |
[quote] They have retrieved DNA from one of the stamps on the Zodiac letters. It was too degraded to make a match.
Not quite. It’s only a partial sample. It’s still contains viable genetic info but it will take more than just a DNA match to identify him. Corroborating info like residential records, employment history, that kind of stuff.
by Anonymous | reply 32 | June 25, 2020 4:22 PM |
The big question is why did he suddenly stop?
by Anonymous | reply 33 | June 25, 2020 6:18 PM |
R17, I heard it was either scorpions or a goat that got him.
by Anonymous | reply 34 | June 25, 2020 6:28 PM |
r18, Graysmith was guilty of fudging a lot of the "evidence" against Arthur Leigh Allen. The case against him is really thin.
by Anonymous | reply 35 | June 25, 2020 6:29 PM |
Didn't some lady come forward several years ago stating that she was almost certain the Zodiac killer was her own father? IIRC it was after he had died.
by Anonymous | reply 36 | June 25, 2020 6:46 PM |
Here is the link to what I was referring to.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 38 | June 25, 2020 6:47 PM |
Steve Hodel also claimed his dad was Zodiac.
by Anonymous | reply 39 | June 25, 2020 6:48 PM |
Those claims were just as made up as the "My dad killed the Black Dahlia" idiots
by Anonymous | reply 40 | June 25, 2020 6:49 PM |
Some people thought Bruce Davis of the Manson family was the Zodiac, but I think that has been ruled out.
by Anonymous | reply 41 | June 25, 2020 6:49 PM |
I don’t know much about it, is there a good documentary to watch to catch up before diving into the thread?
by Anonymous | reply 42 | June 25, 2020 7:15 PM |
This Is the Zodiac Speaking is a documentary that was included on the DVD extras with the Fincher film. It features interviews with investigators and witnesses many of whom have since passed away.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 43 | June 25, 2020 7:19 PM |
Regarding the Zodiac costume I feel like he was playing the role of a comic book villian. In his letters he makes references to comic books and pulp fiction novels. In that case it seems like he would be very young, maybe early 20s, and could still be alive today.
by Anonymous | reply 44 | June 25, 2020 7:25 PM |
[quote] The big question is why did he suddenly stop?
He dropped dead from a Charley Horse.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 45 | June 25, 2020 7:26 PM |
Is this the one Patton Oswald’s wife caught?
by Anonymous | reply 46 | June 25, 2020 7:27 PM |
R46, no. And she never caught anyone or was even close -- she was a latecomer to the EAR/ONS/Golden State Killer case. But she does deserve credit for renaming him the Golden State Killer and bringing more attention to the case.
by Anonymous | reply 47 | June 25, 2020 7:29 PM |
The movie Zodiac with Jake Gyllenhaul and Robert Downey, Jr. scared the hell out of me. I love that movie but still can’t watch it alone at night.
by Anonymous | reply 48 | June 25, 2020 7:35 PM |
R33 he might’ve been incarcerated on something else, died or continued his killing without the fanfare. If he was young enough in the late 60s, he could very well be alive today. If you think about the many people that go missing, it’s very disturbing. Plus he bragged in one of his letters he could make the killings look accidental.
by Anonymous | reply 49 | June 25, 2020 7:43 PM |
R38, that woman also claimed to be the illegitimate daughter of JFK.. These people are usually full of delusions. Hodel and the Black Dahlia still fascinates me along with that LA house where it may have happened. Spooky.
R25, thanks for that link. I used to read at that site but I lost the link - those people can be very crazy, not just obsessive but craaazy. Still the research is fun - you know, as much as serials killers are fun.
by Anonymous | reply 50 | June 25, 2020 7:47 PM |
Where was the president during the late 60s?
by Anonymous | reply 51 | June 25, 2020 7:54 PM |
R51, Bone Spurs is far too stupid to have pulled off anything like communicating via complex ciphers.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 52 | June 25, 2020 7:59 PM |
The History Channel did a series last year called The Hunt for the Zodiac Killer. I forgot who the said the killer was, but it was not Arthur Leigh Allen. The series was very thorough and scientific. You can watch it on Youtube.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 53 | June 25, 2020 8:14 PM |
I seriously doubt any of the name "suspects" did it. If he's ever caught - I think it will be someone who was never considered a suspect (like The Golden State killer)
by Anonymous | reply 54 | June 25, 2020 8:30 PM |
Or it was someone who was eliminated early on due to the quackery science of handwriting analysis.
by Anonymous | reply 55 | June 25, 2020 8:32 PM |
Hold me, David, I’m scared.
by Anonymous | reply 56 | June 25, 2020 8:32 PM |
[Quote] David Fincher's "Zodiac" is a good film
It's a GREAT film. It should have been awarded as such.
by Anonymous | reply 57 | June 25, 2020 8:37 PM |
[quote]Steve Hodel also claimed his dad was Zodiac.
I honestly don't even believe that George Hodel killed Elizabeth Short at this point. Steve Hodel needs to stop. He's really ruining any credibility he may or may not have had with these claims.
by Anonymous | reply 58 | June 25, 2020 8:48 PM |
It's Mitt Romney. Read the linked thread, look at the police sketch, look at one of the only samples of Mitt's writing available try to read one of those Zodiac letters not in his voice. Look up the Mormon references the Zodiac used.
by Anonymous | reply 59 | June 25, 2020 10:30 PM |
R59 The hair on back of my neck just stood up, I’m so creeped out.
by Anonymous | reply 60 | June 25, 2020 10:41 PM |
The scariest detail from the case is that the Zodiac seemed to have called some of his victims' family members and left 'breathing' phone calls. What a freak!
by Anonymous | reply 61 | June 25, 2020 10:42 PM |
The original Unsolved Mysteries case about the Zodiac -- scared me as a kid when it first aired!
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 64 | June 26, 2020 12:58 AM |
Do we have a Jackie Hoffman Troll now, on top of everything?
by Anonymous | reply 65 | June 26, 2020 2:51 AM |
[quote]The movie Zodiac with Jake Gyllenhaul and Robert Downey, Jr. scared the hell out of me. I love that movie but still can’t watch it alone at night.
The scene were Gyllenhaal visits the old house in the middle of nothing at night and hears someone moving in the house while his host claims there's no one else there was truly terrifying.
by Anonymous | reply 66 | June 26, 2020 2:56 AM |
R66, the Lake Berryessa scene scared me most.
by Anonymous | reply 67 | June 26, 2020 3:39 AM |
That scene was filmed exactly where the attack happened.
by Anonymous | reply 68 | June 26, 2020 3:47 AM |
Okay, you can tie us up- but please don't hurt us!
by Anonymous | reply 69 | June 26, 2020 3:51 AM |
I think it probably was Arthur Leigh Allen, but we’ll never know for sure. If it wasn’t him, the culprit is most likely dead. The murders were over 50 years ago, and the Zodiac was estimated to be 30-35 years old at the time.
by Anonymous | reply 70 | June 26, 2020 3:58 AM |
[quote] the Lake Berryessa scene scared me most.
I could barely watch that scene. It wasn't until I saw the DVD extras which included "the making of" that scene that I was able to view it objectively and that took the fear away.
The two were both stabbed in the back while they were lying prone on the ground but because the girl was so much lighter he was able to pick her up and also stab her in the front. That was just so sad to me. She died the next day in the hospital. They really survived quite a while considering how long it took to get help. The guy became a lawyer.
Thanks to those who posted links to the documentaries.
by Anonymous | reply 71 | June 26, 2020 4:00 AM |
R65 First time I brought her up—probably because I’m watching The Apolitician.
Would you rather Ibsuggested Mary Testa?
by Anonymous | reply 72 | June 26, 2020 4:00 AM |
Zodiac (2007) is one of the greatest movies ever made. It’s probably the scariest movie I’ve seen as an adult.
What did Graysmith fudge about the case against ALA? I don’t doubt it, I’m just unclear on the details. The coincidences are pretty nuts.
The guy that the zodiac killer dot com website is convinced did it was positively ID’d by voice by the police dispatcher who took the July 4th call, but who knows how accurate such an identification is.
The documentaries included with the Blu ray—and there are 2 of them, one that has an overview of the case and is nearly 2 hours long, and one that focuses just on ALA, about an hour long—are as terrifying as the movie itself. I highly recommend the Blu ray for those documentaries alone!
I haven’t looked into Mitt Romney as a suspect, but I wonder what a serious criminal profiler would say about him.
R1, he certainly doesn’t have to be dead by now. Not everyone who was in the mid to late 20s in the late 60s is dead. It’s not like the murders occurred in the 40s.
by Anonymous | reply 73 | June 26, 2020 4:04 AM |
Please buy a Blu ray player. They’re like $30. Your TV is HDTV, if not UHDTV (which is actually standard now), there’s no reason your video disc playback machine should be limited to a 20-year-old, non-HD format. The Zodiac Blu ray is very cheap (like $14.99 when it was brand new in ~2008) and is worth every damn penny.
by Anonymous | reply 74 | June 26, 2020 4:08 AM |
Behold! The horror that is the Zodiac Killer :
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 75 | June 26, 2020 4:15 AM |
What became of Bruce McArthur, the Toronto gay serial killer? I can't find any updates in a Google search.
by Anonymous | reply 76 | June 26, 2020 4:16 AM |
I feel really jaded and grim saying this, but I’ve never found the Zodiac Murders to be terribly interesting.
He only killed a few people....then he disappeared.
by Anonymous | reply 77 | June 26, 2020 4:26 AM |
Didn't the teenage survivor from the first attack (in the car) ID Arthur Leigh Allen from photographs?
by Anonymous | reply 78 | June 26, 2020 4:27 AM |
I thought I remembered Jimmi Simpson from the Fincher movie -- it was the last scene, I think. Fincher would later cast him in House of Cards.
by Anonymous | reply 80 | June 26, 2020 4:33 AM |
The Zodiac Killer was Mary Wickes. Everybody knows that.
by Anonymous | reply 81 | June 26, 2020 4:36 AM |
That witness suffers from drug addiction and mental illness. He appears in the Fincher documentaries and it's clear his brain is fried.
by Anonymous | reply 82 | June 26, 2020 4:37 AM |
Yes, he was clearly suffering from Floating Arm Syndrome at the time of that documentary’s shooting.
by Anonymous | reply 83 | June 26, 2020 4:48 AM |
David Fincher makes scrupulously beautiful films.
I have a great deal of respect for him.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 84 | June 26, 2020 4:49 AM |
Two Zodiac survivors, Mike Mageau and Bryan Hartnell, identified Arthur Leigh Allen as their attacker.
by Anonymous | reply 85 | June 26, 2020 5:06 AM |
One of the main suspects, Rick Marshall, is interviewed here. I had no idea they had videotape of him speaking. He's the guy in the film who takes Graysmith down to his basement, btw.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 86 | June 26, 2020 5:06 AM |
Bryan Hartnell never saw Zodiac's face.
by Anonymous | reply 87 | June 26, 2020 5:07 AM |
[quote] [R25], thanks for that link. I used to read at that site but I lost the link - those people can be very crazy, not just obsessive but craaazy.
R50, agreed. I think when you're e-mailing back and forth with the potential Zodiac, that might be taking it a tad bit too far...
by Anonymous | reply 88 | June 26, 2020 5:08 AM |
Walt Disney told us with his last written words. Kurt Russell. Kurt started very young and Walt knew it. The first clue? He had a hit list that started with all the former Mouseketeers. That boyish grin, the blue eyes and all-american look hid the serial killer inside. He later stated grooming Scott Baio. But Scott was too busy screwing Erin Moran and Willie Aames to be of any use. He thought about Adam Rich but Kurt thought he was a 30 year midget. He even about OJ, but who would have thought that OJ could kill anybody?
by Anonymous | reply 89 | June 26, 2020 5:08 AM |
If Bryan Hartnell had died we wouldn't know about the Zodiac costume.
by Anonymous | reply 90 | June 26, 2020 5:13 AM |
[quote]He only killed a few people
Oh, fuck you.
by Anonymous | reply 91 | June 26, 2020 5:44 AM |
None of you even watched the 5-part series that the History Channel did on the Zodiac killer. The actually broke the codes in his letters. They did an exhaustive search and the person they named as the killer is not Arthur Leigh Allen. Why didn't you watch it? I highly recommend it.
All 5 episodes are on Youtube. I linked the first episode. Watch all 5 and then tell me what you think.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 92 | June 26, 2020 6:45 AM |
R92, thanks. I will watch this weekend!
by Anonymous | reply 93 | June 26, 2020 6:56 AM |
Didn't they think the unabomber was the Zodiac at some point?
by Anonymous | reply 94 | June 26, 2020 7:03 AM |
There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac taken from stamps and envelopes, and Allen unfortunately didn't match.
by Anonymous | reply 95 | June 26, 2020 7:35 AM |
There's a photo of victim Darlene Ferrin with an unknown man that many think may be the Zodiac:
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 96 | June 26, 2020 7:35 AM |
The man in that photo is Jim Crabtree who was Darlene's ex-husband.
by Anonymous | reply 97 | June 26, 2020 7:40 AM |
That's what I get for reading Wikipedia about this, R97.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 99 | June 26, 2020 7:52 AM |
R96, I'm guessing a lot men wore those thick coke bottle glasses back in the late '60s.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 100 | June 26, 2020 8:20 AM |
I watched that series when it was new, R92. I didn’t like the “reality TV” approach it took to documenting their investigation, if I remember correctly. Curiously I don’t remember the suspect they zeroed in on.
by Anonymous | reply 101 | June 26, 2020 8:24 AM |
That sketch looks like my dad circa 1969 but I'm sure he's not the Zodiac.
by Anonymous | reply 102 | June 26, 2020 8:28 AM |
I mean... are you SURE sure?
by Anonymous | reply 103 | June 26, 2020 9:04 AM |
I'm sure we would have noticed if he left us in Missouri and moved to the Bay area.
by Anonymous | reply 104 | June 26, 2020 9:06 AM |
Did Jake and Mark both play there characters as if they were on the spectrum? Were they or was that some acting choice they made?
by Anonymous | reply 105 | June 26, 2020 10:55 AM |
Aren't there something like 100 serial killers in the US right now? I'm more interested in law enforcement catching them.
by Anonymous | reply 106 | June 26, 2020 11:43 AM |
Gyllenhaal in "Zodiac": 10 times more chemistry with Robert Downey Jr. than with his love interest Chloe Sevigny
by Anonymous | reply 107 | June 26, 2020 12:10 PM |
R106, with cellphones and GPS tracking technology, their jobs just became that much harder...
by Anonymous | reply 108 | June 26, 2020 3:24 PM |
R105, I loved the movie and Fincher is brilliant, but everything I read about the experience of working with Fincher indicated that unlike many directors, Fincher doesn't allow his actors much, if any freedom to build and interpret their characters. He was specific in the extreme, down to the smallest detail, and would shoot like 70 takes. No exaggeration.
I thought Mark Ruffalo, Robert Downey, Jr. and Jake did a great job. The movie worked. It was effective. Fincher wanted to capture the terror that gripped the city. And you're right who ever said he only killed a few people. When you measure the sensation he caused with the actual crimes committed, he was no John Wayne Gacy.
by Anonymous | reply 109 | June 26, 2020 3:58 PM |
R109, I don't scare easily -- especially not from movies -- but I saw Zodiac on DVD in a remote cabin rental at night and it spooked me the rest of the night, lol.
by Anonymous | reply 110 | June 26, 2020 6:36 PM |
Good, R110. I think that's exactly what Fincher was going for.
by Anonymous | reply 111 | June 26, 2020 7:52 PM |
It was very creepy when they were in the basement looking at the old posters and Jake said that they thought Zodiac had drawn them. Projectionist guy says HE drew them. GAH.
by Anonymous | reply 112 | June 26, 2020 7:55 PM |
And then the front door is locked with a key. GAH.
by Anonymous | reply 113 | June 26, 2020 8:00 PM |
i might have to rewatch this tonight. Robert Downey Jr is hilarious.
by Anonymous | reply 114 | June 26, 2020 8:03 PM |
[quote] There's a partial DNA profile of the Zodiac taken from stamps and envelopes, and Allen unfortunately didn't match.
There is no way of knowing whose DNA that is. It could belong to literally anyone who has ever touched the stamps/envelope. So, no, we don’t have a DNA profile of the Zodiac, partial or otherwise.
by Anonymous | reply 115 | June 26, 2020 8:34 PM |
Bryan Hartnell said that the Lake Berryessa stabbing scene in Fincher’s Zodiac was so accurate that he found it difficult to watch.
by Anonymous | reply 116 | June 26, 2020 8:36 PM |
^Bryan Hartnell seemed able to have moved on and become very well-adjusted and lived a normal life after such a brutal attack. Contrast that with poor Mike Mageau, who I don't think ever recovered.
by Anonymous | reply 117 | June 26, 2020 8:40 PM |
R94, I believe they ruled out Ted Kaczynski (sp.?).
by Anonymous | reply 118 | June 26, 2020 11:07 PM |
I bet he is none of the main suspects. Probably just some nobody who lived a quiet life after the crimes and then died.
by Anonymous | reply 119 | June 27, 2020 12:50 AM |
If it’s not Allen, I think he’s somebody no one’s ever heard of and he probably does not long after the last confirmed letter (which was in 1974).
by Anonymous | reply 120 | June 27, 2020 1:34 AM |
Why assume he’s dead, though?
by Anonymous | reply 122 | June 27, 2020 4:01 AM |
r123, wow, that's such a clever response
by Anonymous | reply 124 | June 27, 2020 4:30 AM |
They used saliva found on the stamp, R115. There's not much chance it was someone else's saliva on the back of the stamp that was still adhered to the envelope until police removed it.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 125 | June 27, 2020 4:33 AM |
There’s the theory that the killer had an accomplice, that one did the killings and the other wrote and mailed the letters. There’s also some discrepancy between the sketches of the suspect that fueled that theory.
I really like Arthur Leigh Allen as a suspect, so I’m also open to the theory that he could have been the killer but had an accomplice, but I also acknowledge that he was a pedo and the killings don’t fit that profile.
by Anonymous | reply 126 | June 27, 2020 5:15 AM |
Yes he’ll be uncovered in exactly four years and three months, Rose.
by Anonymous | reply 127 | June 27, 2020 6:24 AM |
[quote]R109 ...everything I read about the experience of working with Fincher indicated that unlike many directors, Fincher doesn't allow his actors much, if any, freedom to build and interpret their characters. He was specific in the extreme, down to the smallest detail, and would shoot like 70 takes.
And yet, I have never seen an actor give less than a very good performance in any of his films. Do we think Goop would have been better in SE7EN if left to her own devices?
The Variety (?) review for ZODIAC said it was “perfectly cast, down to the smallest role.”
So who’s to say there’s anything wrong with David Fincher’s technique?
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 128 | June 27, 2020 6:31 AM |
I was very impressed with whoever played Arthur Leigh Allen in the film.
by Anonymous | reply 129 | June 27, 2020 8:18 AM |
I think it would be someone who died within a few years of the last deaths. I don’t see how a serial killer, who enjoyed taunting the police and the media, would just stop. Would you suddenly gain a conscience, move elsewhere, and live quietly for decades?
by Anonymous | reply 130 | June 27, 2020 8:37 AM |
I like the theory that the man who lived under the name Joseph Newton Chandler was the Zodiac. 0
by Anonymous | reply 131 | June 27, 2020 9:07 AM |
Didn't the Golden State Killer just stop, though?
by Anonymous | reply 132 | June 27, 2020 9:12 AM |
It was G. She stopped because she finally got a movie contract.
by Anonymous | reply 133 | June 27, 2020 9:16 AM |
R132, yes. 1986 was his last murder, I believe, and then he just stopped. A lot of people believed he had either been imprisoned or died. Turns out he was leading a normal life as a family man!
by Anonymous | reply 134 | June 27, 2020 9:23 AM |
R130 I agree with what you said in that I wonder if defining him as a serial killer is the problem. Maybe that label just doesn’t fit who he is and why he killed. I did a deep dive over this, but far from all details. One thing is don’t most serial killers have a pathological need for trophies as a way to acknowledge and commemorate their killings? Other than the taxi driver’s shirt cuttings, which he did to authenticate who he was, did he take items from the others?
Is there such thing as a “joy” killer, or with the idea of The Most Dangerous Game, a “game” killer, who does it for the sport of it? I could see if the first woman, the waitress, was known to the killer and it was more of a revenge murder, he might have found that exhilarating and then began to ritualize the next time with the couple by the lake. The cipher and letters to the press added yet another “game” element to it. They really believe who ever it was had be ex military right? Maybe it’s just an extension of strategic ops training maneuvers to him rather than serial killing? Just some thoughts from my limited recent introduction to these murders.
by Anonymous | reply 135 | June 27, 2020 10:39 AM |
R129 If I’m not mistaken doesn’t he also play one of the serial killers on the Groff FBI profiling streaming show? Can you imagine the actor’s mother hearing “Your son has the face of a serial killer” all the time.
by Anonymous | reply 136 | June 27, 2020 10:42 AM |
The actor is John Carroll Lynch. He also played Twisty the Clown on AHS.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 137 | June 27, 2020 10:48 AM |
There are some real odd ducks around this case. If you delve even half-heartedly into the online forums, you will undoubtedly come across this woman called Sandy, who seems to believe the Zodiac, or people associated with him, have been stalking and threatening to kill her since the late 60's. The weirdest part about it is while a lot of people dismiss her, a lot of people also take her seriously too, for whatever reason. For the past 20 years at least that I'm aware of she has been promising to show proof of all the evidence she has of this story (including her claim that the Zodiac killer left the hood worn at the Lake Berryessa murders in her car), but strangely she still hasn't come forward with all this stuff yet...
by Anonymous | reply 138 | June 27, 2020 10:50 AM |
Darlene Ferrin might not have been his first kill. The 1963 murders of Linda Edwards and Robert Domingos is very similiar to the Berryessa attack.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 139 | June 27, 2020 10:56 AM |
^ yes, from what I understand, there is evidence those two got loose from their ropes and ran away, or tried to? And so there is some thought that this is why he was so careful when tying Brian and Cecilia at Lake Berryessa.
by Anonymous | reply 140 | June 27, 2020 10:58 AM |
r108 there's an old military saying, "If the enemy's in range, so are you". They've adapted.
A lot are around organized crime, particularly human trafficking.
by Anonymous | reply 141 | June 27, 2020 11:11 AM |
[quote]Darlene Ferrin might not have been his first kill.
Might? MIGHT?!?
by Anonymous | reply 142 | June 27, 2020 2:25 PM |
[quote]They used saliva found on the stamp, [R115].
This is the only place I’ve read that they used saliva. Everything else I’ve read says it was DNA from the front of the stamp.
I’ve also read that initially they attempted to use DNA from one of the (many) hoax letters. Maybe that’s where they found the saliva.
by Anonymous | reply 143 | June 27, 2020 2:30 PM |
Whoever he was, he had a keen sense of high fashion!
by Anonymous | reply 144 | June 27, 2020 3:24 PM |
The History channel series definitively named the identity of the Zodiac Killer, but some of you don't want to know the answer. I guess it's more fun to speculate, and wonder if he's still out there, then it is to know the killer's true identity.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 145 | June 27, 2020 6:07 PM |
I don't know why other people are fascinated by this case, unless it's the attraction of an unsolved mystery, but I grew up in the Bay Area during the Zodiac's era. I was eight years old when he first hit the headline, and 14 when he officially ended his famewhoring campaign.
It was a part of the background of life, knowing that a notorious serial killer was out there, picking off strays and cancelling Halloween when I was in grade school, because he'd threatened to kill some random child. Which didn't stop the older kids from glamorizing hitchhiking and running away, I really had no idea what a weird time I lived in. Well, the weird times are back now, and I was too young to be part of the fun then, and I'm too old now.
by Anonymous | reply 146 | June 27, 2020 6:33 PM |
R145 I tried watching those episodes, but kept falling asleep. There was too much filler or repeating information and building to dramatic effect like tabloid news. There may have been about 20 minutes of original content in each episode and I wasn’t going to sit through them and try and parse it out. But if you want to share the conclusion with us that would be wonderful instead of trying to goad us into watching it.
by Anonymous | reply 147 | June 27, 2020 7:08 PM |
One book I read, don't remember which, said that he quit killing after he was almost caught by the police after killing the grad student who was working as a taxi driver.
by Anonymous | reply 148 | June 27, 2020 7:43 PM |
Usually, when a high profile case isn't solved for any length of time, it's either a cop or someone well-off (or they have a connection to the case).
Whoever went into that rowhouse in Paul Stine's murder is probably the killer.
by Anonymous | reply 149 | June 27, 2020 7:50 PM |
In the book or the film, didn't they allude that Darlene Ferrin knew her killer beforehand?
by Anonymous | reply 150 | June 27, 2020 7:53 PM |
r150 yes but I'd take that book & author with a grain of salt.
by Anonymous | reply 151 | June 27, 2020 8:53 PM |
Mike Mageau said that he thought Darlene recognized the car that pulled up behind them. He asked her who it was and she said “Don’t worry about it.” In some versions of the story he told, she said his name was Richard. Mageau is not a terribly reliable witness. The shooting messed him up mentally and he has struggled with drug addiction for decades.
One piece of circumstantial evidence against Allen is that he lived within walking distance of the IHOP where Darlene Ferrin worked and may have known her in passing.
by Anonymous | reply 152 | June 27, 2020 9:53 PM |
Between the Zodiac, Manson family, and other killers of that time, California seemed to have some scary characters walking around.
by Anonymous | reply 153 | June 28, 2020 1:05 AM |
R151, is there a better book about the Zodiac Killer out there? I'm only familiar with Graysmith's work.
by Anonymous | reply 154 | June 28, 2020 3:10 AM |
No, there really isn’t. There isn’t much that Graysmith got wrong. He absolutely believes that Allen was the Zodiac, so it’s definitely not unbiased in that regard. But his research was invaluable.
by Anonymous | reply 155 | June 28, 2020 3:16 AM |
"Usually, when a high profile case isn't solved for any length of time, it's either a cop or someone well-off (or they have a connection to the case)."
That's not true at all. There are a lot of high profile cases that were solved decades after the fact due to forensic genealogy and the perp hardly ever turns out to be a cop (I can think of only one instance where that happened - the Golden State Killer) . They never seem to be "well-off" either - the vast majority are poor.
by Anonymous | reply 156 | June 28, 2020 3:20 AM |
The Hunt For the Zodiac Killer show mentioned upthread named a guy called Ross Sullivan as the Zodiac, but that doesn't mean he did it. The evidence against him in shaky. He lived in Santa Cruz, not anywhere close to any of the murders.
by Anonymous | reply 157 | June 28, 2020 4:49 AM |
Another possible Zodiac victim was Cheri Jo Bates, a college student in Riverside, CA, who was murdered in 1966.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 158 | June 28, 2020 5:08 AM |
Also John and Joyce Swindle, a honeymooning couple who were killed by a sniper.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 159 | June 28, 2020 5:19 AM |
I admit to never being familiar with Donovan's "Hurdy Gurdy Man" before the Zodiac film. Now, I can't listen to it without thinking of the case..
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 160 | June 28, 2020 5:20 AM |
[quote]This is the only place I’ve read that they used saliva.
Not sure what you mean by "this." The link was to SFGate but other sites like The Atlantic, The Advocate and Sacramento Bee have said the same thing about the back of the stamp. They also mention envelope seals along with the back of the stamp.
It's possible that the samples were contaminated but with multiple samples we'd surely know that by now; each sample would provide a different profile, meaning some (or all) were contaminated and they wouldn't be able to tell which (if any) had the correct DNA.
by Anonymous | reply 161 | June 28, 2020 5:24 AM |
Interesting, R159 -- a wristwatch that probably had paint splatter was missing from the Swindle murder scene, and a Timex watch with paint spatter on it was found at the scene of Cheri Jo Bates' murder.
Neither murder is officially a Zodiac murder, but many believe they are.
by Anonymous | reply 162 | June 28, 2020 5:48 AM |
The murders stopped when Mitt moved to Boston. Don't forget he had a documented history of dressing as a cop and pulling people over.
by Anonymous | reply 163 | June 28, 2020 6:25 AM |
I thought that the DNA from the back of the stamp was identified as coming from a woman.
by Anonymous | reply 164 | June 28, 2020 7:38 AM |
That song gives me chills R160. Like you, I can't not think of the movie when I hear it. I watched the movie again recently, and it surprises me it didn't do as well, because it really is excellent in my opinion. My favourite scene is probably the Kathleen Johns chapter.
I have the original book by Graysmith (which we have to admit is full of supposition and rumour), and the list in there of potential Zodiac cases is astronomical. But I personally believe he did stop after Paul Stine, and lived off his notoriety for awhile after, without killing. Being infamous seemed more enjoyable to him than the murders. That letter where he said something like: "I will now change my method of collecting slaves" I think is a pretty obvious clue that he was intending to just claim whatever he could as one of his crimes to keep instilling fear in the community without having to do anything.
There were a lot of freaky murders and disappearances around that time in California. One of the online investigators who had a website where he claimed Zodiac was likely to be Bruce Davis had a huge list of disappearances of young women who were either hitchhiking or had broken down cars and were seen with a young man approaching them.
by Anonymous | reply 165 | June 28, 2020 8:31 AM |
You know ever since society go more mobile after WW2, there have been dozens of "invisible" people roaming around our cities and towns. No one pays much attention and they tend to blend into the woodwork, but they're out here and they can be killers and no one will ever catch them. They're like footprints on a sandy beach. The waves wash all traces of them away. And they're predators, looking for other invisible people most of the time, but not always. Look at that Golden State killer or who ever they call him. He was doing his dirt for decades. After watching Mindhunters on Netflix, I can't help wondering how many are out here.
by Anonymous | reply 166 | June 28, 2020 1:52 PM |
Graysmith got too caught up. Too absorbed. because at a certain point, you develop a theory, and then either consciously or unconsciously you start gathering or looking for evidence that supports your theory. But I did watch the movie again two nights ago. And yes Leigh Allen seemed like the best possible suspect. I had no idea he lived in his mother's basement right across from the pancake house where that one girl worked.
by Anonymous | reply 167 | June 28, 2020 1:56 PM |
That murder by the lake , when the zodiak was dressed like an idiot , with that zodiak sign on the chest was ridicolous. That was not made by Zodiak, no chance.
by Anonymous | reply 168 | June 28, 2020 2:10 PM |
"I thought that the DNA from the back of the stamp was identified as coming from a woman."
Nope
by Anonymous | reply 169 | June 28, 2020 6:00 PM |
[quote]r168 that zodiak sign on the chest was ridicolous. That was not made by Zodiak, no chance.
Look, not everyone's Project Runway material, okay?
by Anonymous | reply 170 | June 28, 2020 6:10 PM |
Bryan Hartnell said that the symbol on the hood was sewn on by someone who really knew what they were doing. It wasn’t a slapdash job.
by Anonymous | reply 171 | June 28, 2020 7:58 PM |
[quote] I had no idea he lived in his mother's basement
I was surprised by the mention of suspects' basements in this case. Basements in California are rare.
That Zodiac site I linked to upthread -- they seem very keen on a man named Richard Gaikowski being the Zodiac. Like that's their number one suspect.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 172 | June 28, 2020 8:33 PM |
"Bryan Hartnell said that the symbol on the hood was sewn on by someone who really knew what they were doing."
Wasn't he attacked in the dark?
by Anonymous | reply 173 | June 29, 2020 3:43 AM |
The attack happened at 6:15 PM so it was still broad daylight. Here's an interview with Bryan while he was recovering.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 174 | June 29, 2020 4:11 AM |
What in the hell, R172, that's incredible. The cipher solving to GYKE AUSE KEY is unbelievable.
by Anonymous | reply 175 | June 29, 2020 4:57 AM |
How many hundreds of thousands of dollars or even millions has been spent on this case by law officials and others over the years without any resolution? It reminds me of the Madeline McCann case is the amount and depth of time, money and resources spent with out an outcome. It seems like it’s grown into a whole mini industry in and of itself. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn that there are Zodiac tours in the Bay Area one could take.
by Anonymous | reply 176 | June 29, 2020 7:48 AM |
That lawyer needs to reveal the identity of the man who entered his office after hours.
by Anonymous | reply 177 | June 29, 2020 8:35 AM |
r171 that & the Mikado references in the notes always struck me as incongruous as fuck for this type of case (especially since there was a military connection floated at the same time.)
by Anonymous | reply 178 | June 29, 2020 8:57 AM |
Or what about the Riverside desk poem. I believe he wrote it and went to that school. I doubt it was a huge school. Couldn’t they have gotten a list of all the male registered students and cross referenced them?
Also, did anyone follow-up and check out the house the man walked into after Paul Stine’s murder? I don’t recall.
by Anonymous | reply 179 | June 29, 2020 11:09 PM |
His "quotations" from The Mikado were very inexact and riddled with errors.
by Anonymous | reply 180 | June 29, 2020 11:51 PM |
^ And curiously, one of his misquotations was a line that was changed for Groucho Marx, who starred in a 1960 television version.
by Anonymous | reply 181 | June 30, 2020 12:07 AM |
R179 I believe the police may have had their eye on someone for the murder of Cheri Jo Bates in Riverside but were unable to get enough evidence, especially after that case became connected with the Zodiac. From what I understand, they don't really think the two are connected.
After Paul Stine's murder, the Zodiac didn't walk into a house, but into the Presidio. A couple of police officers passed him, or who is believed to have been him, on their way to the crime scene, but either they didn't stop him but kept driving because they had been told the suspect was a black man (the police version), or they did stop him and let him go (Zodiac's version in one of his letters).
by Anonymous | reply 182 | June 30, 2020 12:33 AM |
r182 I remembered it as a rowhouse, the Presidio makes more sense.
r181 I still found it odd. It's almost like he was taunting the police with a clue. I think it would have significance regardless because it's not your typical serial killer reference. The erudite, Silence of the Lambs type is extremely rare.
by Anonymous | reply 183 | June 30, 2020 12:43 AM |
Didn't the Stine killing happen in front of a rowhouse and was witnessed by two or three children playing in a front room who witnessed it?
by Anonymous | reply 184 | June 30, 2020 12:49 AM |
R53, thank you for that link. I'd never heard of Ross Sullivan as a suspect before, and he sounds like a good one. I've only made it up to episode two so far.
I went to college in Riverside in the '00s (not Riverside Community College ), so I was only a couple of miles away from where Zodiac targeted Cheri Jo Bates. I've been on that campus before and that library.
by Anonymous | reply 186 | June 30, 2020 1:15 AM |
The History channel program was the first one to tie the Cheri Jo Bates murder to the Zodiac.
by Anonymous | reply 187 | June 30, 2020 1:22 AM |
The witnesses were in the attic windows of this house, r184. Paul Stone’s cab would have been across the street from the car in the photo, facing in the opposite direction
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 189 | June 30, 2020 2:03 AM |
I watched that full History Channel series. It definitely does not make any conclusions about who the killer was, so I don’t know why the one DLer upthread is saying we could just watch the series and find out (?).
But it sure ends on a cliffhanger. They’re going to cross-test the DNA from the gloves found inside Stone’s cab with the blood on Cheri Jo Bates’ pants. Well, what’s taking so long?
I have to say, one of the coolest things about that series and the This Is The Zodiac Speaking documentary is how they actually show the bloody, ripped clothing worn by the victims. Very haunting. Especially after only reading about the crimes, seeing dramatizations. Seeing artifacts from the real thing—that’s powerful (to a dork like me).
Re: the Presidio, the Zodiac said he ducked into the Presidio and escaped that way, but there was also a man the patrol car drove past who did go up to the doorway of a house. It’s mentioned in the aforementioned Zodiac Speaking documentary.
by Anonymous | reply 191 | June 30, 2020 3:33 AM |
STINE’s* cab! Jesus Christ.
by Anonymous | reply 192 | June 30, 2020 3:34 AM |
I might as well spoil myself with that History Channel documentary -- do they rule out Ross Sullivan?
by Anonymous | reply 193 | June 30, 2020 3:38 AM |
Thanks R191, I had missed the story that he had been seen walking up to a house. Interesting! You're right, it was Zodiac himself who said he slipped into the Presidio. Whatever happened that night he must've been so close to being caught, could this have scared him for awhile? Do killers get scared enough sometimes to stop completely? Zodiac at least could've lived off notoriety for the next few years alone, which may have fed whatever needs he had.
by Anonymous | reply 194 | June 30, 2020 3:44 AM |
^by him being seen, I meant a man had been seen, of course, not necessarily the Zodiac but someone who could've been.
by Anonymous | reply 195 | June 30, 2020 3:45 AM |
Is the History Channel show available on Hulu or Netlfix?
by Anonymous | reply 197 | June 30, 2020 5:14 AM |
it's on Youtube for free in 5 parts, R197
by Anonymous | reply 198 | June 30, 2020 5:18 AM |
[quote]I might as well spoil myself with that History Channel documentary -- do they rule out Ross Sullivan?
No, they rule out Arthur Leigh Allen. They think the killer is Ross Sullivan.
by Anonymous | reply 199 | June 30, 2020 5:18 AM |
R199, thanks. I'm still going to watch the whole series.
Arthur Leigh Allen had always been my guess for the Zodiac, but now I'm curious about this Ross Sullivan fellow.
by Anonymous | reply 200 | June 30, 2020 9:25 AM |
You should be equally curious about Richard Gaikowski, R200.
by Anonymous | reply 201 | June 30, 2020 3:38 PM |
The history channel series makes a compelling case against both Ross Sullivan and Lawrence Kane, until you do additional research and find out how much information was not presented, including Sullivan's alibis for multiple Zodiac killings. He may have killed the woman in Riverside but that doesn't make him Zodiac. Richard Gaikowski is the best suspect in my opinion.
by Anonymous | reply 202 | June 30, 2020 4:20 PM |
R202, Ross obviously killed the woman in Riverside. The facts surrounding that murder were exactly like the Zodiac's other killings in Northern California, where Ross had moved a couple months before those murders took place.
by Anonymous | reply 203 | June 30, 2020 4:59 PM |
Ross Sullivan lived in Santa Cruz. He didn't have an ties to San Francisco or Vallejo
by Anonymous | reply 204 | June 30, 2020 6:02 PM |
Sullivan was 6'2 300lbs at the time of his death from an obesity related heart attack, far larger than he was described by any Z witness or survivor. The photo used in that documentary was from Sullivan's younger years. He has ties to Albany, but so does Larry Kane and Richard Gaikowski. The Sullivan handwriting comparison is compelling as is some of the evidence in the documentary, I'll admit. Sadly, I think we'll never know the truth.
by Anonymous | reply 205 | June 30, 2020 6:37 PM |
I wouldn't be surprised if Kane was definitely responsible for Donna Lass' disappearance. Other than that, I'm not sure.
by Anonymous | reply 206 | July 1, 2020 1:02 AM |
R170 Haha, that is not the point. He almost screamed " I am the Zodiac!!!" by this outfit.
by Anonymous | reply 207 | July 1, 2020 10:36 PM |
The Zodiac more than likely killed hitchhikers on the highways between SF and LA. His "score" he added to the signature of his comms with police and press is theorized to be representative of many disappearances around that time.
Gaikowsky is the Zodiac killer. His name is in the cipher. He is said to have known Bates and Ferrin, even following Ferrin to Albany when she briefly moved there. Multiple people involved with the case agree it's him.
by Anonymous | reply 208 | July 1, 2020 11:48 PM |
"Said to have known".....
Translation: there's no evidence he knew them
by Anonymous | reply 209 | July 2, 2020 12:12 AM |
I think there are still serial killers out there, but they know they can't get away with the kind of famewhoring that the Zodiac and BTK killers pulled. Forensics are better, DNA can be traced, cybertracking can be done if they try to taunt the police, etc.
So I think they've gone underground, while the mass shooters get all the press. If a killer targets the sort of people who aren't missed, or makes sure the bodies are never found, and spreads things around so there aren't multiple killings in the same jurisdiction or state... Nobody will ever put the pieces together.
by Anonymous | reply 210 | July 2, 2020 12:49 AM |
I think there are still serial killers out there, but they know they can't get away with the kind of famewhoring that the Zodiac and BTK killers pulled. Forensics are better, DNA can be traced, cybertracking can be done if they try to taunt the police, etc.
So I think they've gone underground, while the mass shooters get all the press. If a killer targets the sort of people who aren't missed, or makes sure the bodies are never found, and spreads things around so there aren't multiple killings in the same jurisdiction or state... Nobody will ever put the pieces together.
by Anonymous | reply 211 | July 2, 2020 12:49 AM |
I always thought officer Richard Hoffman (rh) was creepy.
And the conflicting memories of the two officers on the night of Paul Stine’s murder. One was adamant he perhaps saw the Zodiac but did not stop him; the other saying that that same officer at the time DID tell him they stopped him. Both seemed believable. He said/he said.
by Anonymous | reply 212 | July 2, 2020 12:51 AM |
Agree with r211
The Long Island series killer is still out there. But, he targeted prostitutes, and nobody cares, except their families.
by Anonymous | reply 213 | July 2, 2020 12:53 AM |
R213, there have been books and documentaries about LISK so clearly someone cares
Jack the Ripper and the Green River Killer killed prostitutes and they got a ton of media attention
by Anonymous | reply 214 | July 2, 2020 1:16 AM |
I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.
by Anonymous | reply 215 | July 2, 2020 1:42 AM |
[quote]Multiple people involved with the case agree it's him.
Some major investigators in the case have looked at him and ruled him out. Plus, he was a counterculture hippie, while the Zodiac seems to be a moralistic rightwinger.
He's an interesting suspect but let's not pretend like there's any consensus here.
by Anonymous | reply 216 | July 2, 2020 3:31 AM |
R209, Paul Stine's sister said she saw Gaikowski at Paul's funeral.
A source who was at Darlene Ferrin's "painting party" said he recognized Gaikowski as someone who had attended.
by Anonymous | reply 217 | July 2, 2020 3:35 AM |
[quote] I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.
Because the first three were presented as mysteries to the public--the newspapers were full of their exploits when they were unknown, and people were terrified of them. Zodiac was never captured, it took years for the Unabomber to be caught, and the Son of sam dominated newspaper headlines during one infamous hot summer.
Kraft got some attention as "the Freeway Killer," but it took until they caught him years after the crimes for anyone to put together the pieces that he had killed people in very different places, and nothing like the attention the first three got. And Corll's killings didn't get much attention until he was caught and all his murders were discovered.
Also, newspapers treated the victims differently. Kraft and Corll largely targeted single boys, many of whom (most) were drifters. The Unabomber mostly went after middle-aged college professors (who are seen as valuable members of society), and Berkowitz and Zodiac went mostly after young middle-class heterosexual couples (likely breeders).
by Anonymous | reply 218 | July 2, 2020 3:46 AM |
"Paul Stine's sister said she saw Gaikowski at Paul's funeral."
And of course there's no way she could be lying or just mistaken. I'm sure she clearly remembers everyone she met 50 years ago
by Anonymous | reply 219 | July 2, 2020 3:57 AM |
R215 The others didn't have a snazzy costume!!
by Anonymous | reply 220 | July 2, 2020 4:05 AM |
I didn't make any judgement on the observation, R219, just noting that there are people who say they saw Gaikowski around Darlene Ferrin.
I'm also R216, before you go off half-cocked and ready to flame again.
by Anonymous | reply 221 | July 2, 2020 4:10 AM |
Some (I can’t remember who) said officer Hoffman was at the painting party, too, but he denied it.
by Anonymous | reply 222 | July 2, 2020 5:19 AM |
Has serious consideration ever been given to the idea that there more than one person acting as the Zodiac killer? Many people now believe that David Berkowtiz was part of a cult and more than one person may have committed the Son of Sam shootings.
by Anonymous | reply 223 | July 2, 2020 5:32 AM |
Only after he's dead, and they're going through his diaries at the trump presidential library;.
by Anonymous | reply 224 | July 2, 2020 5:47 AM |
Serial killers are so boring nowadays
by Anonymous | reply 225 | July 2, 2020 1:48 PM |
[quote] I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.
The famous ones taunt the public, media and/or police.
In short, they have better PR.
by Anonymous | reply 227 | July 2, 2020 5:49 PM |
There haven't been serial killers who taunt the police or the newspapers in quite a while. It's too easy to be traced now.
There are still serial killers, but they operate on the quiet mostly. And they don't go after middle-class pillars of the community or your couples--they go after prostitutes and the homeless and drifters: people who won't be as missed.
by Anonymous | reply 228 | July 2, 2020 5:56 PM |
Why can’t we have a serial killer who targets Republican Senators?
by Anonymous | reply 229 | July 2, 2020 6:11 PM |
Such a dull serial killer. I don’t know why people are so obsessed with a guy who put a paper bag over his head & shot 5 people over a decade. Your local police department kills that many people with their bare hands. He didn’t even molest anyone. Just bang bang, goodbye, see you in a few years.
by Anonymous | reply 230 | July 2, 2020 8:08 PM |
I really never followed any of this before this thread, but was anyone else disappointed that it had nothing to do with astrological signs? I imagined this very complex scenario where he killed in cycles related to the signs. Like the first twelve were just straight forward 1-12 and then like all four water signs and working his way through that. That would have really kept everyone on edge, like are the next ones going to be a Virgo, oh no that’s what I am! And then get into rising sign and all kind of craziness. Maybe branch out and do Chinese Zodiac to and go after dogs and dragons? People would have become hyper vigilant about keeping their birthdates a secret and never celebrate birthdays publicly.
by Anonymous | reply 231 | July 2, 2020 8:30 PM |
It was just a guy with a gun & a paper bag who wrote meaningless squiggles on a piece of paper. No genius, no plotting, no grand scheme, no point.
by Anonymous | reply 232 | July 2, 2020 8:51 PM |
[quote] He didn’t even molest anyone.
Disappointed?
by Anonymous | reply 233 | July 2, 2020 9:02 PM |
Shut the FUCK UP, R230 / R232. Who asked you, bitch?!
by Anonymous | reply 234 | July 2, 2020 10:06 PM |
R214 and R215, the Zodiac is one of the best-known serial killers because he famewhored. He sent letters to the biggest local paper that were published on the front page, he intrigued the public with his ciphers, he made grandiose public thJack the Ripper and the Green River Killer killed prostitutes and they got a ton of media attention reats like saying he'd kill a trick-or-treating child at Halloween, he terrorized the SF Bay Area as well as killing those five known people.
IMHO all the most famous serial killers are those who caused the most widespread public terror, like Son of Sam making NYC quake in its boots, and the Night Stalker scaring the shit out of LA. The Green River Killer did the same for Seattle, BTW he didn't just kill prostitutes, he killed joggers and other respectable citizens. And BTW, did Dahmer terrorize the gay community that way? Not that the press or police would care in his day.
by Anonymous | reply 235 | July 2, 2020 11:28 PM |
This is part of the dumbing down of America.
When's the last time we saw a serial killer dressed like a clown? Let's step it up a little bit!
by Anonymous | reply 236 | July 3, 2020 8:30 AM |
I sure hope that he wasn't a Scorpio
We get a bad rap as it is 😔
by Anonymous | reply 237 | July 3, 2020 11:12 AM |
Nobody thinks it could have been Rick Marshall?
I'm starting to think that maybe the Zodiac was multiple people, like someone upthread put forth as a possibility.
by Anonymous | reply 239 | July 5, 2020 6:32 AM |
If allen was zodiak he couldn be the one who killed the taxidriver, the sketch do not match, no way.That was not Leigh
by Anonymous | reply 240 | July 5, 2020 1:27 PM |
Who gave the description for the sketch that didn't match, R240, the kids in the house overlooking the taxidriver's murder?
I would not expect kids to be great witnesses, or good at describing adults they only saw for a moment.
by Anonymous | reply 241 | July 5, 2020 4:55 PM |
[quote] I would not expect kids to be great witnesses, or good at describing adults they only saw for a moment.
Good point. To teens, everyone over 25 probably looks like some vague, unknown middle age.
by Anonymous | reply 242 | July 5, 2020 5:03 PM |
Did he get his Zodiac outfit from the thrift store?
by Anonymous | reply 244 | July 6, 2020 9:30 AM |
I've been wondering why he would bother with that get-up when he wasn't planning to leave any witnesses. For whose benefit was he wearing the outfit? Was it just because he felt like looking pretty?
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 245 | July 6, 2020 7:19 PM |
I was intrigued that the Zodiac shared he applied boat/airplane top-coat to his finger tips to mask his prints.
by Anonymous | reply 246 | July 6, 2020 8:50 PM |
R237 Scorpios are known as the best lovers of the zodiac
Weren’t there two or three of messages/riddles from the killer that couldn’t be decoded? Can they be read somewhere?
by Anonymous | reply 248 | July 8, 2020 8:44 AM |
R248, there were some unsolved ciphers. All of Zodiac's letters and ciphers can be found below.
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 249 | July 13, 2020 6:19 PM |
Thanks R249 I was curious
by Anonymous | reply 250 | July 14, 2020 8:47 AM |
I took a shot (no pun intended) at the ciphers. Ha. Hard as hell.
by Anonymous | reply 251 | July 14, 2020 8:51 AM |
Tales of the City author Armistead Maupin had a small role in this whole case, where he thought one of the later Zodiac letters sounded similar to badly disguised fan mail he had received from San Francisco Police Inspector Dave Toschi. Toschi ended up being removed from the Zodiac case after being impeached for faking the killer's supposed letter. The Zodiac case is full of weird little bits like this.
Incidentally, I very much enjoyed the look of 70s-styled Mark Ruffalo in wife beater and short shorts in the movie.
by Anonymous | reply 252 | July 14, 2020 8:58 AM |
R251, I sort of wonder if the unsolved ciphers are just gibberish? Maybe the Zodiac wanted the country's greatest code-cracking minds to spin their wheels for 50 years.
by Anonymous | reply 253 | July 15, 2020 7:41 PM |
[quote] I sort of wonder if the unsolved ciphers are just gibberish?
That’s the prevailing wisdom. I think they’ve had fairly sophisticated software programs try to solve them, and nothing. If they were solvable, someone or something would have done it by now.
by Anonymous | reply 255 | July 15, 2020 9:24 PM |
r255 not necessarily. Ciphers can be layered and/or personalized, so solving them would require a "key" that might consist of knowledge specific to the killer. That's how amateurs solved one of them.
by Anonymous | reply 257 | July 16, 2020 12:06 AM |
The show Unsolved Mysteries made some eerie parallels between The Unabomber and the Zodiac
by Anonymous | reply 258 | July 17, 2020 5:47 PM |
R258 Which episode? I only saw the first two so far
by Anonymous | reply 259 | July 17, 2020 5:51 PM |
I'm sure one could find eerie parallels between Elizabeth Taylor and the Zodiac, but highly unlikely she was guilty
by Anonymous | reply 260 | July 17, 2020 5:53 PM |
He wasn't the Unabomber. That's silly.
by Anonymous | reply 261 | July 17, 2020 5:58 PM |
R258, it's the Unsolved Mysteries episode linked earlier in the thread (not the multi-part series)
by Anonymous | reply 262 | July 17, 2020 6:24 PM |
If the Golden State Killer case is any indication, all of the popular suspects in the Zodiac case are wrong, and it's some random man nobody has even thought of.
by Anonymous | reply 263 | July 19, 2020 5:13 AM |
I hope we are not done with this thread.
by Anonymous | reply 268 | August 2, 2020 7:27 PM |
Who IS she? Who WAS she? Who does she hope to BECOME?
by Anonymous | reply 269 | August 2, 2020 7:43 PM |
I did not know that Robert Graysmith had two books on the case. I e-borrowed "Zodiac Unmasked" from my local library and he's making a pretty strong case for Arthur Leigh Allen...
Non-ALA believers, why do you believe it's not him?
by Anonymous | reply 270 | August 2, 2020 11:43 PM |
R270, apart from there being no physical evidence that connects him with the crimes, Allen was a pedophile. If he had been a serial killer he would have killed children. Heterosexual couples would not have interested him.
by Anonymous | reply 271 | August 3, 2020 12:10 AM |
[quote]R215 I'm curious why the Zodiac Killer , who Wikipedia lists as having 5 victims, David Berkowitz (six victims), Ted Kaczynski (3 victims), et al are widely known, but monsters like Randy Kraft (67 victims) and Dean Corll (33 victims) are largely unknown by the public.
Star Quality.
by Anonymous | reply 272 | August 3, 2020 12:39 AM |
[quote]R260 I'm sure one could find eerie parallels between Elizabeth Taylor and the Zodiac, but highly unlikely she was guilty
Agreed. The Zodiac was a lot thinner than Liz Taylor.
by Anonymous | reply 273 | August 3, 2020 12:44 AM |
R215, the Zodiac isn't so much famous for the number of victims, for his campaign of terror... and publicity-seeking. I was a kid in the Bay Area then, everyone knew who the Zodiac was, everyone was afraid of him, everyone shuddered when a new letter from him was published and there were months of headlines, everyone saw him lurking in dark corners. Nobody knew when, where, why, or who he'd strike next.
I presume the serial killers who are after the really big numbers keep their activities as quiet as possible, like Robert Pickton, the pig farmer who killed God knows how many prostitutes from the streets of Vancouver, and reportedly disposed of the bodies by bulking out his commercial sausages with Long Pig. He was charged with twenty-odd murders,nobody knows how many victims he really had.
by Anonymous | reply 274 | August 3, 2020 12:53 AM |
“possibly a latent homosexual”
by Anonymous | reply 275 | August 3, 2020 1:09 AM |
They used to claim EVERY killer was a "latent homosexual" because they thought gays were crazy
by Anonymous | reply 276 | August 3, 2020 1:12 AM |
[quote]apart from there being no physical evidence that connects him with the crimes, Allen was a pedophile. If he had been a serial killer he would have killed children. Heterosexual couples would not have interested him.
R271, why do you assume that serial killers' choices of victims are always predicated on sexual attraction?
by Anonymous | reply 277 | August 3, 2020 1:14 AM |
Could Datalounge solve this one?
by Anonymous | reply 278 | August 3, 2020 1:18 AM |
There isn't any real evidence pointing to Allen
by Anonymous | reply 279 | August 3, 2020 1:28 AM |
I think the lady with the baby thrown out the car is a liar.
by Anonymous | reply 280 | August 3, 2020 1:33 AM |
R280, Kathleen Johns -- I don't think it was the Zodiac, but I do believe a truck driver corroborated her story that she was found frantic off the side of the highway.
by Anonymous | reply 281 | August 3, 2020 1:43 AM |
R281 Zodiac took credit but after it made the press. She seems like a hysterical housewife looking for attention.
by Anonymous | reply 282 | August 3, 2020 1:48 AM |
R478, wouldn't that be something?
First question though -- dead or still alive? I thought the Golden State Killer was dead and I was wrong about that.
by Anonymous | reply 283 | August 3, 2020 2:05 AM |
Bump, again. One of the best threads in a long time
by Anonymous | reply 284 | August 9, 2020 6:14 AM |
Loved the beautiful Ione Skye as Kathleen Johns in Fincher’s Zodiac. But I agree, that certainly wasn’t his M.O.
by Anonymous | reply 285 | August 9, 2020 6:54 AM |
On the subject of serial killers stopping, BTK stopped for about eight years at one point and then resumed. They were baffled till they got him, when they discovered it was because he had young kids during that period and was too busy.
(Later, despite this sense of paternal duty, he would go on Scout Camp with his son, leave the tent in the middle of the night when his son was sleeping, kill someone living nearby and go back to sleep in the tent. Great alibi and hard to relate him to the killing because it wasn't where he lived.)
Moral - It's hard to predict serial killers because they are by definition extremely strange dudes.
by Anonymous | reply 286 | August 9, 2020 6:58 AM |
In Graysmith's second book, he writes that when the detectives finally searched Arthur Leigh Allen's trailer, they found -- among other things -- the largest, soiled wooden dildo they'd ever seen next to a jar of vaseline. Lovely...
by Anonymous | reply 287 | August 10, 2020 8:03 AM |
^ I remember that scene in the movie, plus all the squirrels, dead and alive, in the trailer. Creepy!
by Anonymous | reply 288 | August 10, 2020 8:10 AM |
Remember when DL was all atwitter over this?
Offsite Linkby Anonymous | reply 289 | August 10, 2020 8:22 AM |
[quote] You know ever since society go more mobile after WW2, there have been dozens of "invisible" people roaming around our cities and towns. No one pays much attention and they tend to blend into the woodwork, but they're out here and they can be killers and no one will ever catch them. They're like footprints on a sandy beach. The waves wash all traces of them away. And they're predators, looking for other invisible people most of the time, but not always. Look at that Golden State killer or who ever they call him. He was doing his dirt for decades. After watching Mindhunters on Netflix, I can't help wondering how many are out here.
Not so many as there were 40-50 years ago. Serial killers hugely declined once technology improved. The Golden State Killer was captured with DNA testing which hadn't even been widely thought possible when he killed in the 70s and 80s; BTK was caught by improvements in computer technology he didn't understand. BTK, Zodiac and Son of Sam are all highly well known because, as someone said above, they left taunting messages to the police that named themselves; that would be much harder to do in 2020.
There aren't nearly as many today, and the ones who are around (like the Long Island Killer) mostly prey on drifters--homeless people or prostitutes. Again, BTK and Zodiac (and also the Golden State Killer) are scarier to more people today because they preyed mostly on middle-class people--but it's been a while since there's been someone who targets the middle class (because now it's much harder to do that).
by Anonymous | reply 290 | August 10, 2020 8:29 AM |
David Fincher's movies are always beautifully made, but they're usually pretty devoid of any substance (whereas a film like Jonathan Denme's "Silence of the Lambs" is not only scary but also quite rich in things to say about gender and class and the decline of the Rust Belt, Fiincher's "Se7en" is ultimately pretty thin, though it's very scary). "Zodiac" is his masterpiece so far because it uses the complexity of the case to make up for his lack of interest in politics or family dynamics. The more I watch it, the more convinced I am that so many of the sequences are absolutely first-rate: the first attack (to "Hurdy-Gurdy Man"); the Lake Berryessa sequence; the call-in show with Melvin Belli; Candy Clark figuring out the letter sent to the newspaper office was made with human blood; the scene in the scary basement; the scene near the end at the hardware store with Arthur Leigh Allen recognizing he's been identified.
Fincher did a stunning job with the first three episdoes of the second season of "Mindhunter" retiurning to this territory with the BTK Killer; the sequence with the survivor of the massacred family doing the interview in the back of the car was terrifying and yet no one's life was in danger (you were terrified only by the sheer fear of the survivor).. I hope he gets to do this kind of stuff again because he does it so well.
by Anonymous | reply 291 | August 10, 2020 8:42 AM |
^ Yes to all this. There are so many great, tense, atmospheric scenes like that. I would also add the car ride with Kathleen Johns. Even though I knew that story already, for someone unknown, the part between where the man threatens to throw her baby out the window with the next scene being a passer by coming across an out-of-her-mind distressed Kathleen without her baby, is just terrifying.
I can't listen to Hurdy-Gurdy Man without shivers going up my spine either.
by Anonymous | reply 292 | August 10, 2020 8:50 AM |
Oh yes, I forgot that scene, r292! That's one of the best sequences in the film.
by Anonymous | reply 293 | August 10, 2020 6:39 PM |
One of the weirder things of the film is that Robert Downey Jr. plays a 70s ladies man who lives on a San Francisco houseboat and does coke, which is somehow the same thing Chevy Chase plays in "Foul Play."
by Anonymous | reply 294 | August 10, 2020 6:41 PM |
I'm re-watching the film tonight. So beautifully done--Ione Skye gives such a beautiful if brief performance as the woman in the car. When she is found by the side of the road firghtened out of her mind, she is so believable.
by Anonymous | reply 295 | August 14, 2020 5:15 AM |
Why couldn't the killer have been a she. I'm triggered.
by Anonymous | reply 296 | August 14, 2020 5:21 AM |
Exactly R295 - plus the truck driver and the woman who pulls up do a great job of keeping the tension in the scene by their responses to her, along with the delay for the audience in finding out what happened to the baby. Great scene!
by Anonymous | reply 297 | August 14, 2020 5:23 AM |
[quote] Loved the beautiful Ione Skye as Kathleen Johns in Fincher’s Zodiac. But I agree, that certainly wasn’t his M.O.
But neither was the cab driver. But Zodiac admitted to the murder of the latter (and sent the strip of shirt dipped with the cab driver's blood) in a letter in the same handwriting as the killer of the other four people.
by Anonymous | reply 298 | August 14, 2020 5:44 AM |
This is a very well made mystery thriller. The scene in the beginning in which the couple is shot to death is pure cinematic violent art. A very underrated film, in my opinion. One of the decade's best.
by Anonymous | reply 299 | August 14, 2020 5:50 AM |
I haven't seen a lot of Fincher's stuff, but what I have seen and what I like of what I've seen is how he makes the people in his movies seem like real people, while making the movie stylised at the same time. If that makes sense. And he allows every character to have their moment too, no matter how small their part is. This is based solely on my viewing of Zodiac and Mindhunter, mind you. But he does seem to be interesting in portraying real people.
Oh, I guess I've also seen all his videos he did for Madonna too, which I think would all make a top 10 best Madonna videos list.
by Anonymous | reply 300 | August 14, 2020 6:02 AM |
Everyone knows it was Ted Cruz.
by Anonymous | reply 301 | August 14, 2020 6:06 AM |
Was Ted Cruz the first sperm cell to commit murder?
by Anonymous | reply 302 | August 14, 2020 11:35 AM |
The Zodiac missed his true calling of becoming a costume designer.
by Anonymous | reply 303 | August 15, 2020 8:02 PM |
I thought Edward Wayne Edwards could be a legit suspect
by Anonymous | reply 304 | August 15, 2020 9:11 PM |
I haven't heard of that suspect R304. I'm curious, what makes you think so?
by Anonymous | reply 305 | August 15, 2020 10:04 PM |
The Ted Cruz jokes about the Zodiac Killer are soooo played. Snore. Good god.
[quote] Jonathan Denme's "Silence of the Lambs" is not only scary but also quite rich in things to say about gender and class and the decline of the Rust Belt
Say WHAT?
by Anonymous | reply 306 | August 16, 2020 12:50 AM |
Arthur Leigh Allen wasn’t a match.
Exculpatory Evidence
Direct Evidence:
The eyewitnesses of the Stine murder scene claimed Allen was not the man they saw.
Circumstantial Evidence:
Fingerprints/palm prints did not match.
DNA didn't match.
Handwriting was not a match.
Did not wear glasses.
Was old with grey-black hair.
He died before the police could talk
by Anonymous | reply 308 | September 1, 2020 12:25 AM |
I wonder if they can do a DNA search now.
by Anonymous | reply 309 | September 1, 2020 12:25 AM |
We don’t know if the DNA in question actually belongs to the Zodiac. There’s no way to know.
by Anonymous | reply 311 | September 1, 2020 12:27 AM |
R309, there’s a partial DNA profile based on DNA taken from the front of a stamp on an envelope of one of the Zodiac letters. That DNA could belong to literally anyone who has touched it in the past 40+ years. It’s useless.
by Anonymous | reply 312 | September 1, 2020 12:30 AM |
ID Channel has some big special coming up on the case.
They caught BTK. Who knows?
by Anonymous | reply 313 | September 1, 2020 12:35 AM |
Do they know if the cryptic code could be a bunch of bullshit? Maybe the person was just fucking with them.
by Anonymous | reply 314 | September 1, 2020 12:36 AM |
A belated response to R277: the type of crimes the Zodiac Killer committed— ritualistic and repetitive —almost always have a sexual motive.
by Anonymous | reply 315 | September 1, 2020 12:43 AM |
Some say the Zodiac killer posts on DL.
by Anonymous | reply 317 | September 1, 2020 1:05 AM |
R314, I have sometimes wondered if, after the first cryptogram was solved so quickly, and by laypeople no less, whether Zodiac made up nonsense after that to have a laugh at people getting caught up for years trying to solve it.
I don't know if there's any merit to that thought or not, someone well-versed in cryptography may be able to see something in it that shows it is a real message perhaps? But, I have wondered...
by Anonymous | reply 318 | September 1, 2020 1:06 AM |
R310 No, my daddy was the Zodiac killer, not his!!! No, no, no!!
by Anonymous | reply 319 | September 1, 2020 6:22 AM |
They guy is dead or in a nursing home now just like the women in the 1987 issue of Hustler that used to belong to my first step-grandfather that I just found in an old box last month.
by Anonymous | reply 320 | September 2, 2020 4:39 AM |
R216 lol Which one? Who ruled him and why? ALA was ruled out too but many people still say that he is the zodiac.Gaik suppposed to be in Ireland in december 68. He wasnt . Police wanted to see his passport but he said he lost it.
by Anonymous | reply 322 | January 7, 2021 3:13 PM |
ncG1vNJzZmivp6x7pa3TmqOorZ6csm%2BvzqZmraCimq6le5FvanFoaGx%2BbsDHnmSzp5SerqR5yqKjpZ2i